does it hurt been tattooed??
maybe it was the first question in your mind about the art of tattoos, maybe I'll answer yes, you imagine a thousand needles piercing your skin where the pain, but not as bad as it was not scary so that you will feel more than the pain of constant movement in acupuncture. but the difference been tattooed pain can be felt in areas where have you been tattooed in the groin when will hurt worse than other regions, and also the pain you can bear with it certain how you handle the pain ... so feel the sensation
Sunday, January 31, 2010
Saturday, January 30, 2010
where on my body should i get a tatto?
in part where I had to put a tattoo?
before you use body art tattoo you should know which parts are not tattooed, and which parts are not allowed
there are some parts that should not have been tattooed for health reasons or for reasons of their own, but for your own good, which is not part of the body that can not been tattooed include: hair (of course, your hair should not be tattooed as far as I know there are no hair art technology tattoos), teeth and nails (this can be debated whether or not, but because of health reasons I recommend that you do not use a tattoo on the part of health reasons), the cornea and the eye can not sort of been tattooed medical
I only recommend you been tattooed in a place that looks fairly reasonable
I would recommend that been tattooed body parts include:
a. head: the head is a part of the body. but before you you have been tattooed on the shaved head. often been tattooed area is part of the head, above the ears. I tell you if you have a tattoo on his head shaking around your skull so ready
b. neck: the back of the neck and sides often been tattooed but remember you have to shave your hair short so it can be seen
c. Face: for this one I do not recommend you tattoos all over his face, which is this face is part of the face such as eyebrows, or you can use temporary tattoos
d. upper chest: one of the standard areas for tattoos of men and women. symbolizes masculinity for men but for women symbolize sensuality
e. Breast (women): usually for a woman would look very sexy and confident when using tattoos in the area
f. nipple: aims for aesthetic and self-esteem, there is also a tattoo on the nipple area because of the loss of their nipples and surgical reconstruction through tattoos
g. ribs: the ribs for a tattoo would be so painful, they are usually tattooed on the back to wrap the ribs to the front, I thought it was really cool to use a tattoo
h. stomach: I do not recommend to been tattooed in the abdominal area, especially for men because of our age will change physically, especially for men the most rapid change is part of the stomach, look very ugly if one day you change your tattoo.
h. sex: for men I would not recommend it been tattooed in part because it is very difficult, but for a woman would look so hot when been tattooed on the genitals
i. thigh / hip: popular for a woman to tattoo in this section
j. ankle: This section is also popular for been tattooed
k. feet: You can use the tattoo in this section if you want
l. armpit: usually wrap the tattoo on his arm from back to front chest, and carefully been tattooed in this section is very funny
m. arm: This section is very popular with users because it easily visible tattoos and very artistic
n. Other parts are: wrist, shoulder, back, buttocks
before you use body art tattoo you should know which parts are not tattooed, and which parts are not allowed
there are some parts that should not have been tattooed for health reasons or for reasons of their own, but for your own good, which is not part of the body that can not been tattooed include: hair (of course, your hair should not be tattooed as far as I know there are no hair art technology tattoos), teeth and nails (this can be debated whether or not, but because of health reasons I recommend that you do not use a tattoo on the part of health reasons), the cornea and the eye can not sort of been tattooed medical
I only recommend you been tattooed in a place that looks fairly reasonable
I would recommend that been tattooed body parts include:
a. head: the head is a part of the body. but before you you have been tattooed on the shaved head. often been tattooed area is part of the head, above the ears. I tell you if you have a tattoo on his head shaking around your skull so ready
b. neck: the back of the neck and sides often been tattooed but remember you have to shave your hair short so it can be seen
c. Face: for this one I do not recommend you tattoos all over his face, which is this face is part of the face such as eyebrows, or you can use temporary tattoos
d. upper chest: one of the standard areas for tattoos of men and women. symbolizes masculinity for men but for women symbolize sensuality
e. Breast (women): usually for a woman would look very sexy and confident when using tattoos in the area
f. nipple: aims for aesthetic and self-esteem, there is also a tattoo on the nipple area because of the loss of their nipples and surgical reconstruction through tattoos
g. ribs: the ribs for a tattoo would be so painful, they are usually tattooed on the back to wrap the ribs to the front, I thought it was really cool to use a tattoo
h. stomach: I do not recommend to been tattooed in the abdominal area, especially for men because of our age will change physically, especially for men the most rapid change is part of the stomach, look very ugly if one day you change your tattoo.
h. sex: for men I would not recommend it been tattooed in part because it is very difficult, but for a woman would look so hot when been tattooed on the genitals
i. thigh / hip: popular for a woman to tattoo in this section
j. ankle: This section is also popular for been tattooed
k. feet: You can use the tattoo in this section if you want
l. armpit: usually wrap the tattoo on his arm from back to front chest, and carefully been tattooed in this section is very funny
m. arm: This section is very popular with users because it easily visible tattoos and very artistic
n. Other parts are: wrist, shoulder, back, buttocks
Thursday, January 28, 2010
design tatto
what is tatto??
A tattoo is an ink design inserted into the skin, commonly via a needle. The tattoo, in various forms, has been used ornamentally and religiously by humans for thousands of years, with examples of tattoo work found on numerous preserved prehistoric specimens. Humans also use identification tattoos on domesticated animals, particularly livestock. Examples of tattoo work can be seen in most human cultures, and despite some social stigma, tattoos are becoming ubiquitous in the West, with an estimated 25% of Americans wearing at least one tattoo by the end of the 20th century.
A temporary alternative?
for those who are not ready to do tattoos, but they are seriously considering to use the tattoos, tattoos may be considered one of the alternatives before using the actual tattoo
there are several options for you prior to using such actual tattoo
a. tempu use tattoos. tempu is synonymous with tattoo tattoo temporary or semi-permanent. could be like tissue paper drawn tattoo designs
b. you could try some alternatives such as tattoo ink tattoos, airbush, mehendi etc
c. use something temporary like markers sharpies
d. mehendi tattoos. mehendi tattoos are tattoos body art that comes from middle eastern countries. explanation of mehendi tattoo may be very long, I'll make a blog about mehendi tattoo just for you
please try some alternatives there before making a permanent tatto
A tattoo is an ink design inserted into the skin, commonly via a needle. The tattoo, in various forms, has been used ornamentally and religiously by humans for thousands of years, with examples of tattoo work found on numerous preserved prehistoric specimens. Humans also use identification tattoos on domesticated animals, particularly livestock. Examples of tattoo work can be seen in most human cultures, and despite some social stigma, tattoos are becoming ubiquitous in the West, with an estimated 25% of Americans wearing at least one tattoo by the end of the 20th century.
A temporary alternative?
for those who are not ready to do tattoos, but they are seriously considering to use the tattoos, tattoos may be considered one of the alternatives before using the actual tattoo
there are several options for you prior to using such actual tattoo
a. tempu use tattoos. tempu is synonymous with tattoo tattoo temporary or semi-permanent. could be like tissue paper drawn tattoo designs
b. you could try some alternatives such as tattoo ink tattoos, airbush, mehendi etc
c. use something temporary like markers sharpies
d. mehendi tattoos. mehendi tattoos are tattoos body art that comes from middle eastern countries. explanation of mehendi tattoo may be very long, I'll make a blog about mehendi tattoo just for you
please try some alternatives there before making a permanent tatto
Wednesday, January 27, 2010
Privacy Policy
Privacy Policy for www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/
If you require any more information or have any questions about our privacy policy, please feel free to contact us by email at shakuntalarung@gmail.com.
At www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/, the privacy of our visitors is of extreme importance to us. This privacy policy document outlines the types of personal information is received and collected by www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/ and how it is used.
Log Files
Like many other Web sites, www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/ makes use of log files. The information inside the log files includes internet protocol ( IP ) addresses, type of browser, Internet Service Provider ( ISP ), date/time stamp, referring/exit pages, and number of clicks to analyze trends, administer the site, track user’s movement around the site, and gather demographic information. IP addresses, and other such information are not linked to any information that is personally identifiable.
Cookies and Web Beacons
www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/ does use cookies to store information about visitors preferences, record user-specific information on which pages the user access or visit, customize Web page content based on visitors browser type or other information that the visitor sends via their browser.
DoubleClick DART Cookie
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Some of our advertising partners may use cookies and web beacons on our site. Our advertising partners include ....
Google Adsense
These third-party ad servers or ad networks use technology to the advertisements and links that appear on www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/ send directly to your browsers. They automatically receive your IP address when this occurs. Other technologies ( such as cookies, JavaScript, or Web Beacons ) may also be used by the third-party ad networks to measure the effectiveness of their advertisements and / or to personalize the advertising content that you see.
www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/ has no access to or control over these cookies that are used by third-party advertisers.
You should consult the respective privacy policies of these third-party ad servers for more detailed information on their practices as well as for instructions about how to opt-out of certain practices. www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/'s privacy policy does not apply to, and we cannot control the activities of, such other advertisers or web sites.
If you wish to disable cookies, you may do so through your individual browser options. More detailed information about cookie management with specific web browsers can be found at the browsers' respective websites.
If you require any more information or have any questions about our privacy policy, please feel free to contact us by email at shakuntalarung@gmail.com.
At www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/, the privacy of our visitors is of extreme importance to us. This privacy policy document outlines the types of personal information is received and collected by www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/ and how it is used.
Log Files
Like many other Web sites, www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/ makes use of log files. The information inside the log files includes internet protocol ( IP ) addresses, type of browser, Internet Service Provider ( ISP ), date/time stamp, referring/exit pages, and number of clicks to analyze trends, administer the site, track user’s movement around the site, and gather demographic information. IP addresses, and other such information are not linked to any information that is personally identifiable.
Cookies and Web Beacons
www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/ does use cookies to store information about visitors preferences, record user-specific information on which pages the user access or visit, customize Web page content based on visitors browser type or other information that the visitor sends via their browser.
DoubleClick DART Cookie
.:: Google, as a third party vendor, uses cookies to serve ads on www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/.
.:: Google's use of the DART cookie enables it to serve ads to users based on their visit to www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/ and other sites on the Internet.
.:: Users may opt out of the use of the DART cookie by visiting the Google ad and content network privacy policy at the following URL - http://www.google.com/privacy_ads.html
Some of our advertising partners may use cookies and web beacons on our site. Our advertising partners include ....
Google Adsense
These third-party ad servers or ad networks use technology to the advertisements and links that appear on www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/ send directly to your browsers. They automatically receive your IP address when this occurs. Other technologies ( such as cookies, JavaScript, or Web Beacons ) may also be used by the third-party ad networks to measure the effectiveness of their advertisements and / or to personalize the advertising content that you see.
www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/ has no access to or control over these cookies that are used by third-party advertisers.
You should consult the respective privacy policies of these third-party ad servers for more detailed information on their practices as well as for instructions about how to opt-out of certain practices. www.highvoltagelaink.blogspot.com/'s privacy policy does not apply to, and we cannot control the activities of, such other advertisers or web sites.
If you wish to disable cookies, you may do so through your individual browser options. More detailed information about cookie management with specific web browsers can be found at the browsers' respective websites.
Monday, January 25, 2010
traditional japanese art
traditional japanese art
Japanese Traditional Art
Whether it is the Japanese paintings or pottery, Japanese traditional art is vivid and has its own beauty. Here’s a look at some of the different types of Japanese traditional art that reflect the rich history and culture of the place.
Japanese Traditional Art
Japan has always been known for the various forms of beautiful art that is seen out here. The Japanese have managed to retain their own aesthetic lookout while merging foreign influences as well. There was a time when Japan was invaded by ideas that came from outside and there was also a time when the Japanese rarely had any contact or influences from places around the world. Japanese traditional art can be seen in various forms, which the Japanese artists have used to express through various mediums.
When one mentions Japanese traditional art, one can see that it can encompass a whole lot of mediums of expression. Japanese traditional art can include the beautiful Japanese paintings, the exquisite Japanese pottery, the artistic Japanese sculptures and the traditional art extends to the art of flower arrangement known as the Ikebana and Origami which is the art of folding paper. Here’s a look at the various forms of Japanese traditional art that has mesmerized people for years.
Japanese Traditional Art: Painting
Japanese paintings are unique in their own way and have certain characteristics about them as well. This is also the oldest of the Japanese traditional arts. One can see a wide range of styles under Japanese art. This is a combination of traditional Japanese ideas and influences from outside as well.
The various periods in the history of Japan also had certain influences over the Japanese traditional art forms. Beautiful murals were the most significant forms of art during the Nara period. These were seen on the walls of the temple of Horyu-ji in Ikaruga , Nara. Here, the style of the paintings was quite similar to the Chinese paintings. Most of the paintings of the Nara period depicted religious beliefs and stories.
As time passed, one could see various images of the Mandala gain prominence in Japanese art. With Japanese Buddhism on the rise, one could witness new genres being added to the traditional Japanese art. Chinese art slowly disappeared from the scene by the mid-Heian period. This period saw many artists incorporate religion into their paintings.
The 14th century witnessed the Zen monasteries make a strong impact on Japanese art. Ink painting was introduced from the Sung and the Yuan dynasty. The Zen artists gradually moved away from the Chinese style of painting and monochrome landscape paintings gained prominence. This took on a more of a Japanese style in the Muromachi period and towards the end of this period, the ink paintings gave way to a decorative style of art.
Traditional Japanese art also saw the use of gold and silver foil in the Azuchi-Momoyama period. Monumental landscapes adorned the sliding doors and wall paintings decorated beautiful castles. A number of new trends came to the surface during the Edo period. The Rimpa school that was seen during this period were known for their classical themes which were depicted in a very bold fashion with a decorative style.
Western art gained prominence during the Meiji period. Due to the efforts of certain art critics, traditional Japanese art saw a revival during this period especially the Nihonga art. With time, Japanese art also saw many changes in the various art styles.
Today, modern artists have gone towards new themes and abstract paintings as well. The traditional Japanese art style called the nihonga is still represented in various modern ways by artists.
Japanese Traditional Art: Pottery and Sculpture
The earlier forms of pottery seen in Japan were coil made and decorated with rope patterns, which were impressed by hand. Many artists studied the traditional methods of glazing in order to prevent the native styles from disappearing from the scene. Various styles of the Japanese pottery evolved which were initially created by Korean potters. Classic wares were crafted in numerous areas of Japan by the end of the 1980s. Dragons and floral designs adorned the Arita porcelain. The bizen ware was easily distinguishable by the reddish brown color and the ironlike hardness.
Japanese sculpture is beautiful in its own way and has its main focus on Buddhism. Different periods also saw the emergence of various styles of this art form. In the initial stage, materials such as metals and wood were used for the Japanese sculptures. The ancient dogu and the haniwa figures were made of clay. These also had a story behind their form and creation.
The most important and significant Buddhist sculptures belonged to the Hakuho art period. The earlier styles of the sculpture saw a change and features became more softened in their appearance.
Towards the modern times, new ideas and materials were put into use for Japanese sculpture. Outdoor sculpture also became an important feature. These are used in parks and as a part of landscape design. The 1980s saw the use of natural materials being made for Japanese sculptures.
Whether it is the Japanese paintings or pottery, Japanese traditional art is vivid and has its own beauty. Here’s a look at some of the different types of Japanese traditional art that reflect the rich history and culture of the place.
Japanese Traditional Art
Japan has always been known for the various forms of beautiful art that is seen out here. The Japanese have managed to retain their own aesthetic lookout while merging foreign influences as well. There was a time when Japan was invaded by ideas that came from outside and there was also a time when the Japanese rarely had any contact or influences from places around the world. Japanese traditional art can be seen in various forms, which the Japanese artists have used to express through various mediums.
When one mentions Japanese traditional art, one can see that it can encompass a whole lot of mediums of expression. Japanese traditional art can include the beautiful Japanese paintings, the exquisite Japanese pottery, the artistic Japanese sculptures and the traditional art extends to the art of flower arrangement known as the Ikebana and Origami which is the art of folding paper. Here’s a look at the various forms of Japanese traditional art that has mesmerized people for years.
Japanese Traditional Art: Painting
Japanese paintings are unique in their own way and have certain characteristics about them as well. This is also the oldest of the Japanese traditional arts. One can see a wide range of styles under Japanese art. This is a combination of traditional Japanese ideas and influences from outside as well.
The various periods in the history of Japan also had certain influences over the Japanese traditional art forms. Beautiful murals were the most significant forms of art during the Nara period. These were seen on the walls of the temple of Horyu-ji in Ikaruga , Nara. Here, the style of the paintings was quite similar to the Chinese paintings. Most of the paintings of the Nara period depicted religious beliefs and stories.
As time passed, one could see various images of the Mandala gain prominence in Japanese art. With Japanese Buddhism on the rise, one could witness new genres being added to the traditional Japanese art. Chinese art slowly disappeared from the scene by the mid-Heian period. This period saw many artists incorporate religion into their paintings.
The 14th century witnessed the Zen monasteries make a strong impact on Japanese art. Ink painting was introduced from the Sung and the Yuan dynasty. The Zen artists gradually moved away from the Chinese style of painting and monochrome landscape paintings gained prominence. This took on a more of a Japanese style in the Muromachi period and towards the end of this period, the ink paintings gave way to a decorative style of art.
Traditional Japanese art also saw the use of gold and silver foil in the Azuchi-Momoyama period. Monumental landscapes adorned the sliding doors and wall paintings decorated beautiful castles. A number of new trends came to the surface during the Edo period. The Rimpa school that was seen during this period were known for their classical themes which were depicted in a very bold fashion with a decorative style.
Western art gained prominence during the Meiji period. Due to the efforts of certain art critics, traditional Japanese art saw a revival during this period especially the Nihonga art. With time, Japanese art also saw many changes in the various art styles.
Today, modern artists have gone towards new themes and abstract paintings as well. The traditional Japanese art style called the nihonga is still represented in various modern ways by artists.
Japanese Traditional Art: Pottery and Sculpture
The earlier forms of pottery seen in Japan were coil made and decorated with rope patterns, which were impressed by hand. Many artists studied the traditional methods of glazing in order to prevent the native styles from disappearing from the scene. Various styles of the Japanese pottery evolved which were initially created by Korean potters. Classic wares were crafted in numerous areas of Japan by the end of the 1980s. Dragons and floral designs adorned the Arita porcelain. The bizen ware was easily distinguishable by the reddish brown color and the ironlike hardness.
Japanese sculpture is beautiful in its own way and has its main focus on Buddhism. Different periods also saw the emergence of various styles of this art form. In the initial stage, materials such as metals and wood were used for the Japanese sculptures. The ancient dogu and the haniwa figures were made of clay. These also had a story behind their form and creation.
The most important and significant Buddhist sculptures belonged to the Hakuho art period. The earlier styles of the sculpture saw a change and features became more softened in their appearance.
Towards the modern times, new ideas and materials were put into use for Japanese sculpture. Outdoor sculpture also became an important feature. These are used in parks and as a part of landscape design. The 1980s saw the use of natural materials being made for Japanese sculptures.
Saturday, January 23, 2010
Peony
On tuesday Sanna got some more color in the backpiece.
About 4 hours worth.
Next session is in March.
A closer look
About 4 hours worth.
Next session is in March.
Flowers and leaves
A closer look
Friday, January 22, 2010
Garden Designing Art | Amazing Garden Designing Art
Amazing Nature Wallpapers. Beautiful Sculpture Garden - must see. This is real & Natural Scene, which you are looking is created from live trees and plants in garden. See Nice Amazing Garden designing Art.
Boring ass info post... but please read it anyway!
Here's a little late friday night info for you, since i'm stuck at work anyway:
Eckel will be in Germany from the 21st till the 29th of January.
And he will be working at the Brighton Tattoo Convention on January 30th and 31st.
So if you wanted to come by and talk to him at the shop, please wait until the 2nd of February where he'll be at the shop most of the day, doing just that.
Our work schedules are pretty random these days, so we advice you not to drop by without emailing us first, cause we might not be here.
Also, between January 29th and February 8th we won't be answering mails or taking any consultations.*
During that time Allan will be working, but the shop will be closed for everyone except the people getting tattooed.
So, if you have something urgent to discuss, please do so before January 29th.
Thanks for reading and have a fantastic weekend!
*Eckel's consultation day on the 2nd is obviously an exception.
Eckel will be in Germany from the 21st till the 29th of January.
And he will be working at the Brighton Tattoo Convention on January 30th and 31st.
So if you wanted to come by and talk to him at the shop, please wait until the 2nd of February where he'll be at the shop most of the day, doing just that.
Our work schedules are pretty random these days, so we advice you not to drop by without emailing us first, cause we might not be here.
Also, between January 29th and February 8th we won't be answering mails or taking any consultations.*
During that time Allan will be working, but the shop will be closed for everyone except the people getting tattooed.
So, if you have something urgent to discuss, please do so before January 29th.
Thanks for reading and have a fantastic weekend!
*Eckel's consultation day on the 2nd is obviously an exception.
Thursday, January 21, 2010
A not so fun update
For personal reasons, we've been forced to cancel our trip to the Milan Tattoo Convention in February.
Allan hadn't booked any clients for the show, but we still sincerely apologize to anyone who was hoping to get tattooed by him during the convention.
We hope to be back at our usual spot next to Mr. Dettmer next year!
The next convention Uncle Allan is attending will be Ink n Iron in Long Beach, California in June.
Allan hadn't booked any clients for the show, but we still sincerely apologize to anyone who was hoping to get tattooed by him during the convention.
We hope to be back at our usual spot next to Mr. Dettmer next year!
The next convention Uncle Allan is attending will be Ink n Iron in Long Beach, California in June.
Wednesday, January 20, 2010
Happy Granny
Body painting of a baby and a happy granny.
Photo: Gianpaolo Dettoma, World Bodypainting Festival
Photo: Gianpaolo Dettoma, World Bodypainting Festival
Tuesday, January 19, 2010
Body Paint - Misc #8
Body paint with red, white, black and purple nipple.
Recommended reading:
* Old Yeti Spotted in Barcelona
* Body Canvas - Series #2
* Body Canvas - Series #1
Recommended reading:
* Old Yeti Spotted in Barcelona
* Body Canvas - Series #2
* Body Canvas - Series #1
Saturday, January 16, 2010
Wednesday, January 13, 2010
Thanks heaps!
As you all know we've been a little preoccupied with the new shop lately.
And we still are.
We've been at the same spot for about 9 years, so moving is a big deal, even bigger than if we were moving to a new apartment, i think.
It's gonna be the beginning of a new era for us, with new possibilities and new projects and... shit like that, you know what i mean!
So with all that going on, it's easy to forget to blog about other stuff.
Like what it's all about, which is art.
Basically.
So with that in mind i thought i'd post a couple of new tattoos.
Both tattoos are on the same client, Kane from Australia.
He got tattooed two days in a row, one day by Eckel and one day by Allan, and sat like a trooper for both sessions.
What a guy!
Day two; Uncle Allan
Thanks for coming all the way to Copenhagen to get tattooed, and for getting fun pieces too, we hope to see you again some day, maybe even in Australia!
And we still are.
We've been at the same spot for about 9 years, so moving is a big deal, even bigger than if we were moving to a new apartment, i think.
It's gonna be the beginning of a new era for us, with new possibilities and new projects and... shit like that, you know what i mean!
So with all that going on, it's easy to forget to blog about other stuff.
Like what it's all about, which is art.
Basically.
So with that in mind i thought i'd post a couple of new tattoos.
Both tattoos are on the same client, Kane from Australia.
He got tattooed two days in a row, one day by Eckel and one day by Allan, and sat like a trooper for both sessions.
What a guy!
Day one; Eckel
Day two; Uncle Allan
Thanks for coming all the way to Copenhagen to get tattooed, and for getting fun pieces too, we hope to see you again some day, maybe even in Australia!
Score!
Our friendly neighbors at WAS were nice enough to donate a sofa from their current exhibition, Domestic Mashup, to our new shop.
Too bad we can't steal their wallpaper too!
Free stuff is awesome, and now we have one less piece of furniture to buy for the new shop.
Thanks guys!
Color selections are going pretty well, but it's hard.. it's like there are either too many colors to choose from, or not quite enough... *sigh*
Too bad we can't steal their wallpaper too!
Free stuff is awesome, and now we have one less piece of furniture to buy for the new shop.
Thanks guys!
This little orange wonder will be Big Red's new sidekick
Color selections are going pretty well, but it's hard.. it's like there are either too many colors to choose from, or not quite enough... *sigh*
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